Between Heaven & Earth

Episode 25: Trinitas Unleashed: A Bold New Approach to Spiritual Direction

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SummaryThis episode of Between Heaven and Earth with Justin and Amy Howard features Paula Schrod, a therapist and spiritual director, sharing her experience with Encounter Culture Mission Collaborative (ECMC). ECMC integrates therapy, spiritual direction, and healing prayer to create safe spaces rooted in God’s love and emotional health.
Paula describes a life-changing encounter with Jesus through ECMC and highlights how therapy and spiritual direction work together in discipleship. The conversation also introduces Trinitas, a two-year training program co-created by Amy and Paula that blends liturgical, charismatic, and evangelical traditions to equip pastors, therapists, and lay leaders for spiritual direction.
The episode emphasizes supporting pastors through trained spiritual directors, using practical tools like the “four R’s” (repent, renounce, release, receive), and prioritizing God’s love over behavior management in true healing and transformation.
Highlights🌟 ECMC blends therapy, spiritual direction, and healing prayer.💖 God’s love is central to healing and growth.🎓 Trinitas unites three Christian traditions in training.🤝 Spiritual directors lighten pastoral burdens.🛠️ The “four R’s” give simple steps for healing.
Key Insights💡 Therapy + Direction Together: Both disciplines complement each other, countering evangelical stigma around therapy.💡 Love First: Experiencing God’s love is essential for lasting change.💡 Trinitas as a Bridge: Training draws on evangelical, charismatic, and liturgical streams for holistic formation.💡 Shared Pastoral Care: Lay spiritual directors help prevent burnout and strengthen communities.💡 Practical Tools: The “four R’s” provide an easy framework for daily healing.
Overall, this episode invites listeners into a vision of discipleship that unites emotional health, spiritual formation, and healing prayer—equipping a new generation of spiritual directors to bring renewal in churches and communities.
 

Episode 24: Heaven and Earth in the Workplace: Beauty, Presence, and Intercession

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SummaryThe Between Heaven and Earth podcast, hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, features Ashleigh Coleman, an encounter life coach and photographer. Ashleigh shares her journey from spiritual numbness to awakening at an Encounter Weekend, moving from head knowledge of God to a heartfelt experience of His love.
She describes spiritual growth as a slow, steady process and highlights tools like the Kairos Circle for healing and discernment. Through coaching and photography, Ashleigh brings dignity and beauty into broken spaces, encouraging believers to embrace curiosity, prayer, and safe community for authentic discipleship.
Highlights✨ Encounter Weekends bridge head knowledge and heart experience.🌿 The Kairos Circle guides emotional healing with the Spirit.📸 Creativity reveals God’s image in places of pain.💡 Growth is gradual—God’s kindness meets us where we are.🙏 Safe community fosters confession and restoration.
Key Insights💖 Transformation involves both knowing and experiencing God’s love.🌱 Spiritual growth takes time, requiring patience and grace.🌀 The Kairos Circle is a simple, powerful tool for discipleship.📷 Art and ministry intersect by honoring dignity amid brokenness.🙌 Confession in community breaks shame and fosters healing.
Additional ReflectionsAshleigh’s story shows how encounters with God, community, and creativity bring lasting healing. Her journey encourages believers to embrace God’s pace and join Him in bridging heaven and earth through everyday life and ministry.

Episode 23: Learning from the Nations: Encounter Origins, Deliverance, and Longevity in Ministry

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SummaryThe Between Heaven and Earth podcast, hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, features J.C. Alzamora, a veteran deliverance and inner healing minister. J.C. shares his journey into deliverance ministry and its impact on his life, marriage, and global ministry. The conversation emphasizes deliverance as an essential part of discipleship—particularly in the Western context, where intellectualism often overshadows spiritual realities. J.C. highlights the importance of joy, obedience, and God’s presence in sustaining ministry and encourages believers to walk in true freedom and generational transformation through Jesus’ authority.
Highlights✨ Deliverance is a vital aspect of discipleship and freedom in Christ.🌍 Global South approaches to ministry confront spiritual realities more directly than the West.🛡️ Healing and freedom require repentance, renunciation, and renewal of the mind.💖 Joy, obedience, and presence sustain long-term spiritual health.🔥 A rising movement of young believers is embracing vibrant, empowered faith.
Key Insights💡 Deliverance addresses spiritual roots often mislabeled as psychological issues.🌐 Western churches must balance teaching with experiential, Spirit-led ministry.🧩 J.C.’s Five Rs—Repent, Renounce, Release, Receive, Renew—provide a holistic path to lasting freedom.👪 Deliverance breaks generational cycles, creating healthier families and communities.⚖️ True authority flows from heavenly alignment, not striving in the flesh.
ConclusionThis episode calls believers to move beyond intellectualism toward experiential freedom in Christ, embracing deliverance, healing, and Spirit-led discipleship for lasting personal and generational transformation.

Episode 22: Part 2: The Zeitgeist is Eating your Lunch: The spirit of Judgement

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👪 Work with Anna, Parent Coach at OneLifeIf you’re looking for guidance and support in your parenting journey, you can book a session with Anna here.
 
SummaryThe Between Heaven and Earth podcast, hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, explores the role of judgment in today’s culture through a Christian lens. They distinguish between toxic judgment—condemnation, labeling, and loss of dignity—and holy judgment, which is evaluative, hopeful, and Spirit-led. Judgment often springs from fear, envy, or hurt and is amplified by social media and politics.
Listeners are encouraged to ask whether an issue truly involves them and to seek God’s perspective before engaging. Instead of “drive-by judgment,” Christians are called to respond with compassion and hope. Groups often judged—like parents, leaders, and the envied—should be seen through prayer, remembering that harsh labeling blocks the possibility of healing.
The episode closes by pointing to intimacy with Jesus as the path to freedom from judgment. As believers experience His grace and forgiveness, they can reflect His love, bringing restoration instead of condemnation.
Highlights🙏 Judgment as a cultural and spiritual force💡 Toxic vs. holy judgment—condemnation vs. hopeful evaluation🌍 Social media fuels quick, shallow judgments👪 Parents, leaders, and the envied are frequent targets❤️ Believers are called to respond with compassion, not condemnation
Key Insights⚖️ Judgment reflects the cultural “air we breathe,” not just personal flaws🧠 Good judgment evaluates with God’s wisdom; bad judgment condemns💔 Judgment often masks deeper pain or fear🌐 Media and politics magnify judgment into polarization💖 Freedom from judgment grows through intimacy with Jesus

Episode 21: Part 1: The Zeitgiest is eating your lunch: The spirit of Judgement

Summary
Between Heaven and Earth is a podcast hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, leaders of Encounter Culture Mission Collaborative in New England. The show seeks to explore what it means to follow Jesus by uniting heaven and earth within families and communities. This episode focuses on the theme of judgment, addressing its cultural prevalence and biblical understanding. The hosts examine how judgment manifests in believers and communities, differentiating between toxic judgment, which condemns and limits, and healthy judgment, which is restorative and compassionate. They highlight the cultural spirit of the age (“zeitgeist”) that fosters fear and judgment, often opposing the gospel’s message of grace and healing. The podcast emphasizes the need to respond to judgment through the power of the Holy Spirit, moving beyond fear and anger towards freedom and hope. The conversation also addresses the complexity of judgment in Christian communities, the importance of self-awareness and healing, and how to practice non-toxic judgment rooted in love, restoration, and truth. The hosts encourage listeners to confront their own pain caused by judgment, seek healing, and foster communities that extend grace without compromising truth. They conclude by inviting listeners to continue the conversation on judgment—especially in polarized cultural and political contexts—and to engage with Encounter Culture’s resources for support and growth in discipleship.
Highlights
🌍 The podcast explores how to bring heaven and earth together in everyday life through Jesus’s mission of restoration.
⚖️ Judgment is dissected into toxic judgment that condemns and healthy judgment that restores and encourages growth.
🕊️ The “spirit of the age” often fosters fear and judgment, conflicting with the gospel’s message of freedom and grace.
❤️ True Christian judgment calls people higher in their identity and is rooted in compassion and healing, not condemnation.
🔄 Self-judgment impacts how we judge others; healing personal pain enables greater compassion and mercy.
🏘️ Healthy community judgment involves safe, honest conversations that acknowledge sin and brokenness while maintaining hope.
🙏 Listeners are encouraged to seek healing from past wounds caused by judgment and to embrace Christ’s restorative love.
Key Insights
🌬️ The Spirit of the Age as a Cultural Stronghold: The hosts describe the “zeitgeist” or spirit of the age as a pervasive cultural mindset that influences global and regional values and behaviors. This spirit often manifests as Babylonian opposition to the kingdom of God, embedding fear and judgment into social, familial, and church environments. Recognizing this helps believers understand why judgment feels natural yet unhelpful and challenges them to consciously oppose it through the Spirit’s power.
⚖️ Differentiating Toxic and Healthy Judgment: The episode clarifies that judgment is not simply prohibited by scripture; rather, Jesus and Paul call believers to exercise righteous judgment. Healthy judgment involves discernment that seeks restoration and loving correction, while toxic judgment is characterized by final condemnation, assigning identity labels, and writing off others based on limited perspectives. This distinction is vital for navigating relationships and church discipline.
💔 Judgment’s Impact on Identity and Relationships: Toxic judgment damages relationships by reducing people to their worst choices or perceived faults, robbing them of dignity and the possibility of change. It creates barriers to the movement of the Holy Spirit and shuts down healing. By contrast, judgment rooted in grace sees people as made in God’s image and holds space for their potential to grow beyond current failings.
🔄 Self-Judgment and Its Cyclical Effect: The hosts emphasize that the way believers judge themselves directly influences how they judge others. Those who live under harsh self-condemnation or self-righteousness tend to project these attitudes outward, perpetuating a cycle of judgment and fear. Healing and forgiveness in one’s own life enable a more compassionate and hopeful approach toward others, breaking this destructive cycle.
🛡️ The Danger of Both Licentious Mercy and Legalistic Condemnation: The podcast warns against two extremes: unsanctified mercy (sloppy agape) that ignores sin and allows destructive behavior to continue unchecked, and legalistic condemnation that harshly judges without grace. Both approaches are harmful as they usurp God’s judgment role and cripple healthy community life, leading to distrust, hypocrisy, and spiritual death.
🏘️ Creating Safe Communities for Honest Conversations: A healthy Christian community allows space for sin to be acknowledged without shunning or writing off people. It cultivates safety where individuals can be known, share struggles, and receive loving correction aimed at healing. This environment requires leaders and members who have themselves been on healing journeys and can extend compassionate judgment grounded in hope.
🙏 Invitation to Healing and New Stories: The episode closes with an invitation to listeners to confront the pain caused by judgment—whether from others or themselves—and to bring it honestly before Jesus. Healing prayer, spiritual direction, and counseling are recommended pathways to freedom. Embracing Christ’s love enables believers to release bitterness, forgive others, and rewrite their personal and communal narratives with hope and restoration, embodying the kingdom of God in tangible ways.
This rich exploration of judgment within the context of Christian life and culture offers deep practical and theological insights for believers seeking to live out grace and truth amid a judgmental world.

Episode 20: Oppression, Poverty and Lament: An interview with a World Vision Pastor

Summary
The podcast episode of Between Heaven and Earth, hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, features a deep and insightful conversation with Carolyn Poteet, a seasoned leader and pastor with extensive experience working globally in challenging environments through World Vision. Carolyn shares her transformative journey working in war-torn, impoverished, and spiritually diverse regions, highlighting the contrasts between physical and spiritual poverty she witnessed. Her experiences across Africa, Eastern Europe, and other global contexts profoundly shaped her theology, compassion, and understanding of ministry, teaching her to rely deeply on faith and lament amid suffering.
Carolyn reflects on the resilience and spiritual wealth found in some impoverished communities, such as Ethiopia and Angola, contrasted with the stark spiritual poverty in places like Romanian orphanages and Native American reservations. These observations challenged Western assumptions and underscored the importance of discerning local contexts in ministry. The conversation explores the concept of “territorial spirits” and the spiritual struggles embedded in places marked by historical trauma and ongoing oppression.
A significant theme is the power of lament as a biblical and spiritual practice, which Carolyn emphasizes as vital for navigating suffering and brokenness in ministry and life. She explains lament’s structure—addressing God, expressing honest complaint, making specific requests, remembering God’s faithfulness, and culminating in praise—and how it fosters authentic relationship with God, especially when faith feels tested. The episode also touches on the importance of holistic ministry that addresses both physical and spiritual needs, exemplified by Carolyn’s stories from World Vision projects.
Throughout, Carolyn encourages listeners to engage with their local realities thoughtfully, seeking God’s heart for the unique struggles and hopes within their own communities. She emphasizes faith as a muscle strengthened through persistent trust even when outcomes seem uncertain. The episode closes with lighthearted moments and an invitation for pastors to join Encounter Life, a supportive journey of spiritual renewal and healing.
Highlights
🌍 Carolyn Poteet’s decade-long global experience with World Vision shaped her theology and ministry approach.
💔 Stark contrasts seen between physical poverty with spiritual richness and spiritual poverty despite material resources.
🌳 The story of the Boabab tree illustrates God’s power over entrenched spiritual oppression.
🙏 Lament Psalms offer a biblical framework for expressing pain honestly and maintaining faith amid suffering.
🌱 Holistic ministry addresses both physical needs and spiritual transformation.
🏡 Understanding local contexts is crucial for relevant and effective ministry.
💪 Faith is like a muscle, strengthened through continual trust even when life is unpredictable.
Key Insights
🌍 Global Exposure Deepens Compassion and Theology: Carolyn’s work in diverse, high-conflict regions exposed her to forms of faith and suffering that transcended Western paradigms. Witnessing resilient faith in war zones and impoverished communities humbled her and expanded her understanding of God’s presence in suffering, prompting a posture of learning rather than assuming cultural superiority. This highlights the transformative power of cross-cultural ministry experiences for shaping mature, compassionate Christian leadership.
💔 Physical Poverty vs. Spiritual Poverty: Carolyn contrasts vibrant spiritual life amid extreme physical poverty (e.g., Ethiopia and Angola) with devastating spiritual emptiness in orphanages and some post-communist Eastern European contexts. This distinction reveals that material conditions do not determine spiritual vitality, and ministry must address both domains carefully. Spiritual poverty, characterized by hopelessness and broken relationships, can be harder to detect but is equally urgent to address.
🌳 Territorial Spirits and Spiritual Oppression: The episode introduces the concept of “territorial spirits”—spiritual forces influencing regions and communities, resulting in generational cycles of brokenness, violence, or apathy. The Boabab tree story symbolizes confronting these deep-rooted spiritual barriers through prayer and faith. While recognizing these realities, Carolyn emphasizes starting with God’s power and presence rather than demon-chasing, underscoring a posture of dependence on God’s leading in spiritual warfare.
🙏 Lament as a Vital Spiritual Discipline: Carolyn’s detailed explanation of lament Psalms as a vehicle for authentic prayer challenges Western Christian tendencies to bypass lament. By naming grief, anger, and frustration directly to God, believers engage in honest dialogue that sustains faith even in prolonged hardship. This practice fosters deep relational trust with God, enabling perseverance without denying pain or glossing over suffering. The structure of lament—address, complaint, request, remembrance, and praise—provides a spiritual roadmap for healing and hope.
🌱 Holistic Ministry Integrates Physical and Spiritual Needs: Carolyn’s stories illustrate that effective ministry in impoverished contexts attends to both the body and the soul. For example, providing food and clean water can open hearts to the gospel, showing that practical care and spiritual transformation are complementary, not competing, priorities. This model challenges dichotomous thinking and encourages ministries to embrace a both/and approach.
🏡 Contextual Listening Shapes Kingdom Work: Carolyn stresses the importance of discerning the specific brokenness and hopes of local communities rather than imposing generalized solutions or external agendas. The good news must resonate with the lived realities of the people served—whether freedom from addiction in Maine or liberation from oppressive power structures in Washington, D.C. This insight calls for humility and attentiveness in ministry, inviting ongoing dialogue with God about local needs.
💪 Faith as a Muscle Strengthened through Trials: Carolyn likens faith to a muscle that grows stronger through consistent exercise, especially in unpredictable and challenging environments. Her experiences in Africa and ministry struggles at home teach that faith is not a one-time switch but a dynamic journey requiring trust even when outcomes are unclear or suffering persists. This metaphor encourages believers to cultivate endurance and resilience by leaning on God repeatedly, trusting in His faithfulness across seasons.
Conclusion
This episode of Between Heaven and Earth offers a rich conversation that bridges global Christian experiences with local ministry challenges. Carolyn Poteet’s stories and reflections invite listeners to deepen their faith through compassionate engagement with suffering, embrace lament as authentic prayer, and pursue holistic and context-sensitive ministry. The themes of spiritual resilience, the power of prayerful dependence on God, and the need to listen carefully to local brokenness provide a compelling framework for anyone seeking to join Jesus in His work of restoration both globally and at home.

Episide 19: Part 3: Permission to be okay in Jesus: Freedom from co-dependancy and emotional idolatry

Episode 18: An Encounter Story: From Shame to Promise

Summary
The podcast episode of Between Heaven and Earth, hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, features an intimate conversation with Tim Kennerson, a longtime friend and church planter, who shares his powerful testimony of faith, struggle, and healing. Raised in a solid Christian home, Tim initially believed he lacked a testimony because his faith journey was not marked by dramatic conversion or deliverance experiences. However, through candid reflections, he reveals a lifelong wrestling with shame, secrecy, and sin—particularly around sexuality and pornography—starting from a young age due to early exposure and lack of open, grace-filled conversations about human sexuality.
Tim describes growing up in a loving, intentional Christian family where faith was part of daily life, but personal confession and community accountability were minimal. He navigated his teenage years feeling distant from Jesus, burdened by shame and unworthiness, and engaged in early sexual activity that conflicted with his faith values. The episode highlights the harmful effects of a shame-based approach to sexuality in many Christian contexts and underscores the need for a more redemptive, theologically rich conversation that celebrates the goodness of human sexuality as designed by God.
A turning point in Tim’s journey came through Encounter Culture Mission Collaborative’s Encounter Weekends, where he experienced “directed confession” in a safe, non-judgmental environment. This practice involved confessing sins aloud to trusted prayer ministers, renouncing shame and lies, and receiving grace and healing from the Holy Spirit. Tim recounts how this experience radically transformed his relationship with God, moving from distance and shame to intimacy and freedom, and how it shaped his marriage with Sam, who extended grace and forgiveness when he confessed past mistakes, including a lie about his sexual history.
The episode also addresses broader themes of church culture, emphasizing the importance of cultivating confessional communities that normalize confession and healing, thereby breaking strongholds of shame and secrecy. Tim and the hosts encourage parents to proactively engage their children in age-appropriate, grace-filled conversations about sexuality to prevent the damage caused by secrecy and pornography exposure. The podcast closes with an invitation for listeners to join Encounter Life cohorts for pastors, which offer spiritual renewal and healing in a supportive small group setting.
Ultimately, the episode offers a hopeful message: freedom from shame and past sins is possible through confession, grace, and community, and embracing this process leads to deeper intimacy with Jesus and transformation in all areas of life.
Highlights
🙌 Tim Kennerson shares a powerful testimony of healing from shame and addiction through directed confession.
💡 The podcast emphasizes the importance of confession to another person, not just to God, for true healing.
❤️ The episode highlights the grace and forgiveness experienced in Tim’s marriage after confessing past sexual sins and lies.
📖 A richer, redemptive theology of human sexuality is needed in Christian communities to combat shame and disordered desires.
🛡️ Early exposure to pornography can cause lifelong struggles; parents must proactively and lovingly address sexuality with their children.
🕊️ Encounter Culture Mission Collaborative offers safe spaces for spiritual renewal, confession, and healing through Encounter Weekends and ministry cohorts.
🤝 Building a confessional community is essential for breaking strongholds and living in freedom and grace.
Key Insights
🔥 The Power of Testimony as a “Sword”: Tim’s story demonstrates how every believer has a testimony, regardless of how dramatic their conversion story is. Testimonies reveal God’s goodness and faithfulness even in ordinary, everyday struggles, and sharing them publicly breaks the power of shame and isolation. This encourages believers to embrace their unique faith journeys and find strength in vulnerability.
🗣️ Confession to Another Person is Crucial for Healing: The episode stresses that confession isn’t only a private dialogue with God but is fundamentally communal. Biblical references (James 5:16, 1 John 1) support the practice of confessing sins to trusted believers, which facilitates healing by removing the darkness where shame thrives. This counters the false notion that confession is merely a ritual or legalistic act, highlighting its sacramental and embodied nature.
💔 Shame Distorts Relationship with God and Others: Tim’s early shame associated with sexuality and secret sin distanced him from Jesus and caused relational fractures. Shame operates as agreement with the enemy’s lies—that God’s grace is insufficient—resulting in isolation and self-condemnation. The healing process involves renouncing shame and embracing God’s unconditional love, which restores intimacy with God and relationships with others.
💡 A Theology of Human Sexuality Rooted in Grace and Beauty: The hosts critique the prevalent church approach that often reduces sexuality to “don’t do this or that,” fostering fear and shame. Instead, they advocate for teaching the biblical goodness of sexuality, inspired by John Paul II’s Theology of the Body, which frames sexuality as a reflection of the Trinitarian relationship and a gift for joy and creation. This theological foundation can reduce temptation by offering a vision of sex as sacred and beautiful.
🛡️ Early Exposure to Pornography Demands Proactive Parenting: Tim’s early exposure to pornography at age 10 illustrates a common, hidden challenge many children face today. The discussion highlights the urgent need for parents to provide age-appropriate, grace-filled sexual education, countering the damaging narratives and lies propagated by the porn industry. This proactive engagement helps children develop a healthy understanding of their bodies and desires.
🤝 Community and Accountability Sustain Ongoing Sanctification: Tim emphasizes that healing is not a one-time event but a lifelong journey involving ongoing confession, accountability, and grace within a supportive community. Encounter Culture fosters this through Encounter Weekends and small groups, helping believers continue to confront sin patterns and grow in Christlikeness. This reflects the biblical process of sanctification as cooperative and relational.
🌿 Redemption Transforms Pain into Purpose: Tim’s testimony of how God transformed his shame, past mistakes, and generational curses into blessings—such as the birth of his daughter—illustrates the redemptive power of God’s grace. This transformation offers hope to listeners that past failures do not define their future but can become the soil for new life, healing, and fruitfulness in God’s kingdom.
Conclusion
This episode of Between Heaven and Earth offers a deeply encouraging and practical conversation about the realities of Christian discipleship amid struggles with shame, sin, and sexuality. Through Tim’s testimony and the hosts’ insights, listeners are invited into a culture of confession, grace, and healing that aligns with biblical teaching and the heart of God. The episode challenges churches and families to move beyond shame-based approaches toward a redemptive, beauty-infused understanding of human sexuality and community life, empowering believers to experience freedom, intimacy with Jesus, and transformation in the ongoing journey of faith.
Resources for parents: God's Design for Sex series
EncounterLife for Pastors
 

Episode 17: Part 2: Permission to be okay in Jesus: Freedom from codependency and emotional idolatry

Summary
The podcast episode of Between Heaven and Earth, hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, centers on the complex topic of codependency and the human tendency to place one’s own sense of well-being in the hands of others. The hosts explore how unhealthy emotional dynamics often stem from deeply embedded family systems, early childhood trauma, and cultural influences, particularly within Christian and communal contexts. Drawing from personal stories, psychological insights, and biblical principles, Justin and Amy unpack how codependency manifests as the compulsive need to control other people’s feelings and environments to maintain one’s own sense of “okay.” They emphasize the significance of reclaiming an internal, God-given sense of well-being rather than relying on external circumstances or people. The conversation touches on family origins, early childhood experiences—including traumatic births—and societal pressures such as political polarization and church dynamics, all contributing to emotional idolatry. The episode concludes with practical advice for identifying codependent patterns by tuning into bodily reactions and invites listeners to continue the healing journey through prayer, therapy, and community support offered by the Encounter Life program and other resources.
Highlights
🌿 Codependency often arises from unresolved family trauma and early life experiences.
🧠 Our family systems shape what we perceive as “normal” and impact our emotional health.
💔 Emotional idolatry occurs when we tie our well-being to others’ feelings or approval.
🔄 Healing requires reclaiming an internal sense of “okay” anchored in faith, not external validation.
🕊️ Jesus offers freedom from codependency, enabling us to respond rather than react emotionally.
🔥 Moments of emotional agitation are opportunities for deep healing if we lean into them.
🤝 Encounter Life and counseling resources provide practical tools and community for breaking codependency.
Key Insights
🎻 Family Systems as Emotional Harp Strings: The metaphor of a harp string being plucked illustrates how unresolved childhood trauma creates a physical and emotional resonance that triggers disproportionate reactions to adult conflicts. This insight reflects the somatic nature of trauma and its long-lasting imprint on the nervous system, emphasizing the importance of healing at both emotional and physical levels. By understanding these “strings,” individuals can begin to recognize why certain adult interactions evoke intense feelings of fear or instability.
🔄 Codependency as Displacement of Well-Being: Codependency involves shifting one’s internal sense of stability onto external factors—whether it’s another person’s emotional state, a political affiliation, or congregational approval. This displacement creates emotional volatility and an unhealthy either/or mindset, which locks people into black-and-white thinking and stifles spiritual and emotional growth. The hosts highlight that true freedom and resilience come from rooting one’s “okay” in God’s promises rather than cultural or relational circumstances.
🙅‍♂️ The Challenge of Boundaries in Codependent Relationships: The episode underscores how both parents and pastors often struggle with boundaries due to guilt or a sense of responsibility for others’ feelings. Parents may “guilt-give” to compensate for perceived shortcomings, while pastors may exhaust themselves trying to care for everyone’s spiritual state. This lack of boundaries leads to emotional exhaustion and stunts maturity in relationships, underscoring the necessity of learning to say “no” and recalibrating one’s own “okay.”
🌱 Early Childhood Trauma and the Formation of Well-Being: Traumatic experiences from birth, such as neglect or medical complications, can prevent the establishment of a foundational sense of safety and well-being. The hosts describe how healing can even occur in adulthood through prayer and intentional work, highlighting the possibility of divine restoration for those who feel they never had a baseline “okay” to return to. This insight invites listeners to consider prenatal and infancy experiences as critical contexts for emotional health.
💥 Emotional Reactivity vs. Response: Codependency leads to reactive emotional patterns rather than thoughtful responses. When a person’s well-being depends on others, they become trapped in cycles of reaction, often involving suppression, anger, or passive aggression. The personal story shared by Amy illustrates the courage required to choose to be internally okay despite another’s anger, marking a pivotal step toward emotional freedom and healing.
🌍 Cultural Codependency and Political Polarization: The discussion extends codependency beyond personal relationships to societal dynamics, revealing how people often align with political parties or social groups to avoid conflict and maintain safety. This cultural codependency fosters deep polarization and black-and-white thinking, which fractures communities and limits the ability to embody Christ’s reconciling love. Recognizing this dynamic is essential for fostering grace and unity amid division.
🙏 The Role of Spiritual Practices and Community in Healing: Healing codependency is not a solo journey. The hosts recommend engaging with prayer, counseling, and community programs like Encounter Life that provide coaching and therapeutic support. They emphasize the importance of bodily awareness and the willingness to explore triggers as gateways to healing deeper wounds. The promise of ongoing transformation through the Spirit offers hope that emotional freedom is accessible, enabling believers to embody kingdom freedom and love.
Conclusion
This episode of Between Heaven and Earth provides a profound exploration of codependency, blending theological insight, psychological understanding, and practical wisdom. By addressing the roots of emotional idolatry in family systems, early trauma, and cultural pressures, Justin and Amy Howard invite listeners to reclaim an internal, God-centered sense of well-being. Their candid storytelling and thoughtful analysis illuminate the path from reactive patterns to responsive freedom, supported by prayer, community, and professional help. Ultimately, the episode encourages listeners to courageously embrace healing and embody the kingdom of God by becoming emotionally free agents who bring heaven and earth together in their daily lives.
 
Links: EncounterLife for Pastors

Episode 16: Part 1: Permission to be okay in Jesus: Freedom from co-dependency and emotional idolatry

Summary
The podcast episode “Between Heaven and Earth,” hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, explores the profound topic of codependency and the need to control, especially as it relates to the Christian journey of healing and restoration. The hosts emphasize that understanding and overcoming codependency is essential for true freedom in Christ. They introduce the concept of being “okay” — a deep sense of well-being rooted in Jesus, which is distinct from fleeting emotions. Through a biblical story from Luke 7, they illustrate how Jesus embodies this ideal “okay,” being free from the need to control others or be controlled by their judgments, allowing Him to respond with compassion, wisdom, and love in complex social situations.
The conversation highlights how codependency shifts a person’s sense of well-being away from Jesus and into the hands of others, causing emotional bondage and unhealthy relational patterns. The hosts identify key factors that contribute to codependency: guilt, misunderstandings of holiness and submission, lack of healthy anger, lack of resiliency, and family systems dynamics. They stress that real freedom involves learning to trust God deeply, embracing healthy emotional expressions such as anger, and building relational resiliency through tear and repair—working through conflicts rather than avoiding or reacting destructively.
Justin shares a personal story of navigating a challenging relationship, demonstrating how setting boundaries, embracing honesty, and trusting God’s guidance allowed for healing and growth. The episode closes by inviting listeners to reflect on their own emotional health and relational dynamics, with a promise to continue the conversation on family systems and freedom in the next episode. The Howards encourage ongoing partnership through donations to support their ministry and resources for listeners seeking deeper healing and wholeness.
Highlights
🌟 The concept of being “okay” is a deep, stable sense of well-being rooted in Jesus, not dependent on circumstances or other people.
📖 Jesus in Luke 7 models freedom from codependency by responding with grace and love, despite social tensions and judgments.
💔 Codependency often arises when our emotional well-being shifts from God to others, driven by guilt, unhealthy submission, or fear of conflict.
😡 Healthy anger is a God-given emotion that signals when something is wrong and motivates constructive action, distinct from rage or suppression.
💪 Emotional resiliency grows through “tear and repair” in relationships, allowing for conflict resolution and deeper trust.
🧬 Family systems and generational patterns play a significant role in shaping codependent behaviors, to be explored in future episodes.
🤝 The journey to freedom involves trusting God’s infinite possibilities rather than limiting ourselves to reactive either/or choices.
Key Insights
🔄 The “Okay” as a Foundation for Freedom: The Howards define “okay” as a deep internal well-being that includes permission to be well and a trust in God’s ultimate goodness. This framing helps listeners separate transient emotions from their core identity, reducing reactive behaviors rooted in fear or control. Rooting one’s “okay” in Jesus allows for infinite responses beyond the binary of fight or flight, enabling grace-filled engagement with others.
👁️‍🗨️ Jesus’ Example in Social Complexity: The Luke 7 story reveals Jesus’ unique ability to be present to conflicting needs—honoring Simon’s hospitality, responding to the woman’s faith, and addressing judgment without defensiveness. This illustrates how being emotionally free and spiritually rooted allows a person to see others as whole, complex individuals and respond with clarity and love rather than control or withdrawal.
⚖️ Codependency vs. Compassion: The episode distinguishes codependency from true compassion. Codependency is driven by a need to control others’ emotions or outcomes for one’s own well-being, often disguised as submission or kindness. True compassion, modeled by Jesus, involves loving and serving others without being emotionally enslaved to their states, allowing for healthy boundaries and honest communication.
😤 The Role of Healthy Anger: Anger is reframed as a neutral, God-given emotion that signals when boundaries are crossed or injustice occurs. Healthy anger motivates constructive responses, while unhealthy anger (rage or repression) damages relationships and inner peace. The Howards emphasize that Christian teaching should embrace the biblical permission to be angry without sinning, countering traditions that suppress emotional expression in favor of a false peace.
🛠️ Building Resiliency Through Tear and Repair: Emotional and relational strength is developed by enduring conflict and repairing wounds rather than avoiding difficult conversations or cutting off relationships prematurely. The analogy to muscle building—tearing and repairing tissue—illustrates how vulnerability and persistence in relationships foster growth, flexibility, and deeper connection.
🔄 The Impact of Family Systems: Early family dynamics and generational patterns shape how individuals experience and respond to emotional pain, conflict, and control. Recognizing these influences is essential for breaking codependent cycles and cultivating healthier relational patterns. The Howards plan to explore this further, highlighting the importance of systemic understanding in personal growth.
🙏 Trusting God’s Infinite Possibilities: A key spiritual insight is that rootedness in God frees believers from the limited either/or mindset that traps codependency. Instead of reacting in fixed ways, believers can partner with the Spirit to access creative, grace-filled responses to complex emotional and relational situations. This trust cultivates courage and freedom to engage with others authentically and lovingly.
Extended Analysis
The episode thoughtfully integrates psychological and spiritual dimensions of codependency, making a compelling case that emotional freedom begins with a theological foundation: being “okay” in Jesus. This concept offers a profound antidote to the common experience of emotional idolatry—where feelings, others’ approval, or circumstances become gods that enslave one’s soul. By rooting well-being internally and spiritually, individuals can resist the compulsive need to control or be controlled, which often manifests as people-pleasing, guilt-driven caretaking, or avoidance of conflict.
The biblical example of Jesus in Simon’s house serves as a microcosm of this freedom. Jesus neither conforms to social expectations nor reacts defensively; instead, He perceives the complex emotional and spiritual dynamics and responds with grace that honors all parties. This story disrupts the simplistic either/or mindset and invites Christians to live “in between heaven and earth,” navigating the messy realities of human relationships with divine wisdom.
The discussion about guilt and bad ideas about holiness reveals how distorted spiritual beliefs can fuel codependency. When people believe holiness means keeping others happy at all costs or submitting without boundaries, they inadvertently idolize relational control. This leads to burnout, resentment, and a loss of spiritual freedom. The Howards advocate for a healthier understanding of holiness—one grounded in God’s love and freedom rather than rigid performance or fear.
Their teaching on anger is particularly refreshing, challenging a pervasive Christian taboo that often mislabels all anger as sinful. By inviting listeners to embrace anger as a helpful emotional signal, they open the door to healing and assertiveness. This perspective aligns with biblical texts that acknowledge righteous anger while warning against sinning in it, promoting emotional maturity rather than repression or explosive reactions.
The concept of resiliency as “tear and repair” is a practical framework for relational growth that counters the social media culture of instant cancellation or avoidance of discomfort. It acknowledges that real relationships require effort, vulnerability, and grace to navigate conflict and pain. This builds emotional muscle, enabling people to maintain their “okay” even amid relational challenges.
Finally, the recognition of family systems and generational influences situates emotional health within a broader context. Codependency is not just individual pathology but often a learned pattern passed through families. Addressing these systemic roots is crucial for lasting healing, and the Howards’ plan to explore this in future episodes promises deeper insights.
Overall, the episode offers a rich, nuanced exploration of codependency that integrates biblical theology, emotional health, and practical wisdom. It encourages listeners to root their identity in Christ, embrace healthy emotions, set boundaries, and cultivate resilient relationships—all essential steps toward freedom and flourishing in God’s restoration work.
This teaching is particularly valuable for Christians seeking to understand their emotional struggles in light of faith, providing hope and tools for transformation without shame or simplistic answers. The personal transparency of the hosts and their invitation to partner in this journey create a supportive community ethos that many listeners will find encouraging and empowering.
 
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