Between Heaven & Earth

Episode 16: Part 1: Permission to be okay in Jesus: Freedom from co-dependency and emotional idolatry

Summary
The podcast episode “Between Heaven and Earth,” hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, explores the profound topic of codependency and the need to control, especially as it relates to the Christian journey of healing and restoration. The hosts emphasize that understanding and overcoming codependency is essential for true freedom in Christ. They introduce the concept of being “okay” — a deep sense of well-being rooted in Jesus, which is distinct from fleeting emotions. Through a biblical story from Luke 7, they illustrate how Jesus embodies this ideal “okay,” being free from the need to control others or be controlled by their judgments, allowing Him to respond with compassion, wisdom, and love in complex social situations.
The conversation highlights how codependency shifts a person’s sense of well-being away from Jesus and into the hands of others, causing emotional bondage and unhealthy relational patterns. The hosts identify key factors that contribute to codependency: guilt, misunderstandings of holiness and submission, lack of healthy anger, lack of resiliency, and family systems dynamics. They stress that real freedom involves learning to trust God deeply, embracing healthy emotional expressions such as anger, and building relational resiliency through tear and repair—working through conflicts rather than avoiding or reacting destructively.
Justin shares a personal story of navigating a challenging relationship, demonstrating how setting boundaries, embracing honesty, and trusting God’s guidance allowed for healing and growth. The episode closes by inviting listeners to reflect on their own emotional health and relational dynamics, with a promise to continue the conversation on family systems and freedom in the next episode. The Howards encourage ongoing partnership through donations to support their ministry and resources for listeners seeking deeper healing and wholeness.
Highlights
🌟 The concept of being “okay” is a deep, stable sense of well-being rooted in Jesus, not dependent on circumstances or other people.
📖 Jesus in Luke 7 models freedom from codependency by responding with grace and love, despite social tensions and judgments.
💔 Codependency often arises when our emotional well-being shifts from God to others, driven by guilt, unhealthy submission, or fear of conflict.
😡 Healthy anger is a God-given emotion that signals when something is wrong and motivates constructive action, distinct from rage or suppression.
💪 Emotional resiliency grows through “tear and repair” in relationships, allowing for conflict resolution and deeper trust.
🧬 Family systems and generational patterns play a significant role in shaping codependent behaviors, to be explored in future episodes.
🤝 The journey to freedom involves trusting God’s infinite possibilities rather than limiting ourselves to reactive either/or choices.
Key Insights
🔄 The “Okay” as a Foundation for Freedom: The Howards define “okay” as a deep internal well-being that includes permission to be well and a trust in God’s ultimate goodness. This framing helps listeners separate transient emotions from their core identity, reducing reactive behaviors rooted in fear or control. Rooting one’s “okay” in Jesus allows for infinite responses beyond the binary of fight or flight, enabling grace-filled engagement with others.
👁️‍🗨️ Jesus’ Example in Social Complexity: The Luke 7 story reveals Jesus’ unique ability to be present to conflicting needs—honoring Simon’s hospitality, responding to the woman’s faith, and addressing judgment without defensiveness. This illustrates how being emotionally free and spiritually rooted allows a person to see others as whole, complex individuals and respond with clarity and love rather than control or withdrawal.
⚖️ Codependency vs. Compassion: The episode distinguishes codependency from true compassion. Codependency is driven by a need to control others’ emotions or outcomes for one’s own well-being, often disguised as submission or kindness. True compassion, modeled by Jesus, involves loving and serving others without being emotionally enslaved to their states, allowing for healthy boundaries and honest communication.
😤 The Role of Healthy Anger: Anger is reframed as a neutral, God-given emotion that signals when boundaries are crossed or injustice occurs. Healthy anger motivates constructive responses, while unhealthy anger (rage or repression) damages relationships and inner peace. The Howards emphasize that Christian teaching should embrace the biblical permission to be angry without sinning, countering traditions that suppress emotional expression in favor of a false peace.
🛠️ Building Resiliency Through Tear and Repair: Emotional and relational strength is developed by enduring conflict and repairing wounds rather than avoiding difficult conversations or cutting off relationships prematurely. The analogy to muscle building—tearing and repairing tissue—illustrates how vulnerability and persistence in relationships foster growth, flexibility, and deeper connection.
🔄 The Impact of Family Systems: Early family dynamics and generational patterns shape how individuals experience and respond to emotional pain, conflict, and control. Recognizing these influences is essential for breaking codependent cycles and cultivating healthier relational patterns. The Howards plan to explore this further, highlighting the importance of systemic understanding in personal growth.
🙏 Trusting God’s Infinite Possibilities: A key spiritual insight is that rootedness in God frees believers from the limited either/or mindset that traps codependency. Instead of reacting in fixed ways, believers can partner with the Spirit to access creative, grace-filled responses to complex emotional and relational situations. This trust cultivates courage and freedom to engage with others authentically and lovingly.
Extended Analysis
The episode thoughtfully integrates psychological and spiritual dimensions of codependency, making a compelling case that emotional freedom begins with a theological foundation: being “okay” in Jesus. This concept offers a profound antidote to the common experience of emotional idolatry—where feelings, others’ approval, or circumstances become gods that enslave one’s soul. By rooting well-being internally and spiritually, individuals can resist the compulsive need to control or be controlled, which often manifests as people-pleasing, guilt-driven caretaking, or avoidance of conflict.
The biblical example of Jesus in Simon’s house serves as a microcosm of this freedom. Jesus neither conforms to social expectations nor reacts defensively; instead, He perceives the complex emotional and spiritual dynamics and responds with grace that honors all parties. This story disrupts the simplistic either/or mindset and invites Christians to live “in between heaven and earth,” navigating the messy realities of human relationships with divine wisdom.
The discussion about guilt and bad ideas about holiness reveals how distorted spiritual beliefs can fuel codependency. When people believe holiness means keeping others happy at all costs or submitting without boundaries, they inadvertently idolize relational control. This leads to burnout, resentment, and a loss of spiritual freedom. The Howards advocate for a healthier understanding of holiness—one grounded in God’s love and freedom rather than rigid performance or fear.
Their teaching on anger is particularly refreshing, challenging a pervasive Christian taboo that often mislabels all anger as sinful. By inviting listeners to embrace anger as a helpful emotional signal, they open the door to healing and assertiveness. This perspective aligns with biblical texts that acknowledge righteous anger while warning against sinning in it, promoting emotional maturity rather than repression or explosive reactions.
The concept of resiliency as “tear and repair” is a practical framework for relational growth that counters the social media culture of instant cancellation or avoidance of discomfort. It acknowledges that real relationships require effort, vulnerability, and grace to navigate conflict and pain. This builds emotional muscle, enabling people to maintain their “okay” even amid relational challenges.
Finally, the recognition of family systems and generational influences situates emotional health within a broader context. Codependency is not just individual pathology but often a learned pattern passed through families. Addressing these systemic roots is crucial for lasting healing, and the Howards’ plan to explore this in future episodes promises deeper insights.
Overall, the episode offers a rich, nuanced exploration of codependency that integrates biblical theology, emotional health, and practical wisdom. It encourages listeners to root their identity in Christ, embrace healthy emotions, set boundaries, and cultivate resilient relationships—all essential steps toward freedom and flourishing in God’s restoration work.
This teaching is particularly valuable for Christians seeking to understand their emotional struggles in light of faith, providing hope and tools for transformation without shame or simplistic answers. The personal transparency of the hosts and their invitation to partner in this journey create a supportive community ethos that many listeners will find encouraging and empowering.
 
Julian of Norwich Prayer: "All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well" 
EncounterLife Cohorts
"Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend 
"Boundaries" Workbook by Cloud and Townsend
 

Episode 15: An Encounter Story: Freedom from Demonic Torture

Summary
The podcast episode from Between Heaven and Earth, hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, features a powerful testimony from Ashley Nute, a longtime friend and fellow believer. Ashley shares her journey from a traumatic childhood marked by intense demonic oppression and spiritual warfare to finding deliverance and freedom through a transformative encounter weekend. Raised in a broken family with generational trauma, Native American spiritual influences, and abuse, Ashley endured years of nightly terror and demonic visitation that deeply affected her faith and life. Despite her early belief in God, she struggled with doubt and confusion about His goodness as the darkness of her experiences deepened.
Ashley recounts how her life changed after a desperate, fearful moment while nursing her baby, when she confronted a terrifying demonic presence in her home. She and her husband, Adam, attempted to rid their environment of spiritual invitations to darkness but found no lasting relief. The turning point came when she attended what she thought was a typical women’s retreat, which turned out to be an intense encounter weekend focused on deliverance and healing. There, Ashley experienced profound ministry led by two deliverance ministers, Maria and JC, who helped her dismantle family curses, rejection, and spiritual strongholds through prayer and inner healing.
This encounter brought a radical shift in Ashley’s life—she was filled with the Holy Spirit, experienced deep joy, and began to rebuild her understanding of God, moving away from legalistic and hurtful doctrines towards a personal, intimate relationship with Jesus. She emphasizes that freedom from demonic bondage is often much closer than people think—sometimes just seconds away—and encourages others struggling with spiritual oppression to seek help and not give up hope. The episode closes with a prayer for listeners who may be afflicted and an invitation to access spiritual guidance and deliverance support through the Encounter Culture community and One Life Group counseling services.
Highlights
🙏 Ashley’s testimony reveals the reality of spiritual warfare and deliverance in modern Christian life.
🌪️ Childhood trauma and generational curses deeply affected Ashley’s spiritual and emotional health.
💔 Despite early faith, Ashley struggled with doubt and confusion about God’s goodness.
🔥 A terrifying demonic encounter while nursing her baby catalyzed her pursuit of freedom.
✝️ An encounter weekend with deliverance ministers led to radical inner healing and deliverance.
🌟 Ashley experienced filling with the Holy Spirit and newfound joy post-deliverance.
🤝 The podcast encourages listeners facing spiritual oppression to seek prayer ministry and support.
Key Insights
👶 Early spiritual sensitivity combined with generational trauma creates a vulnerable environment for demonic oppression. Ashley’s story illustrates how open doors in family history—such as untreated generational abuse, addiction, and occult involvement—can invite spiritual strongholds. This highlights the importance of understanding generational spiritual dynamics when addressing deliverance and healing.
🌙 Demonic oppression can manifest with tangible, terrifying physical and emotional symptoms. Ashley describes paralysis, night terrors, auditory hallucinations of rushing wind and screeching, and violent demonic aggression. Such experiences challenge Western skepticism about spiritual warfare and emphasize the need for the Church to develop a robust theological and practical framework to address these realities.
🤐 Silence and shame around spiritual oppression can exacerbate trauma. Ashley’s early experiences were dismissed or misunderstood in her legalistic church setting, leaving her isolated and without tools for healing. This underscores the critical need for churches to provide safe spaces and knowledgeable ministry for those suffering from spiritual and emotional trauma.
💥 Deliverance ministry, especially when empowered by the Holy Spirit, can bring rapid and profound transformation. The encounter weekend ministry led by Maria and JC compressed years of healing into hours, involving breaking generational curses, renouncing demonic agreements, and repentance. The reliance on the Holy Spirit’s guidance and the ministry’s confidence in God’s power were pivotal to Ashley’s breakthrough.
🌈 Experiencing the Holy Spirit’s filling and joy post-deliverance redefines one’s relationship with God. Ashley’s joy and laughter after deliverance contrasted sharply with her previous fear and confusion, illustrating the transformative power of God’s presence beyond legalistic religion. This shift also helped her rebuild her theology around God’s goodness and freedom.
🕊️ Freedom from spiritual bondage is accessible and often much nearer than people realize. Ashley’s encouragement that one can be “30 seconds away from freedom” challenges the belief that deliverance is complicated or unattainable. This insight invites believers to take courageous steps toward healing through prayer and community support.
🤲 Ongoing ministry and community support are essential for sustained freedom and growth. Ashley’s journey did not end with one encounter; she continues healing, ministry, and friendship within a community that values spiritual discernment and prophetic gifting. The podcast’s invitation to listeners to seek prayer ministers and spiritual directors highlights the importance of ongoing care in spiritual health.
Ashley’s story is a compelling testimony of God’s faithfulness to redeem even the darkest pasts and bring healing through the power of the Holy Spirit and deliverance ministry. It calls the Church to be more aware, compassionate, and equipped to minister to those wrestling with spiritual oppression and generational brokenness, offering hope that freedom and joy are possible.

Episode 14: Part 2: Manifestations of the Spirit: Being you, Being Weird, and Loving Well

Summary
The podcast episode from Between Heaven and Earth, hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, explores the intersection of spiritual manifestations, ministry, and the Holy Spirit’s work in daily life and church communities. The conversation dives into understanding physical manifestations of spiritual power, distinguishing between immature and disobedient ministry expressions, and processing personal wounds from “weird” or harmful ministry experiences. The hosts emphasize love as the core motive of Christian ministry, cautioning against rigid “formulaic” approaches and encouraging discernment rooted in grace and compassion. They share stories illustrating how God’s power can work through imperfect people, highlighting the importance of recognizing God’s love beyond human flaws. The discussion encourages believers to cultivate a hunger for more of the Spirit’s work, to embrace risky obedience out of love, and to develop mature leadership that fosters safe spaces for growth without enabling chaos. They advocate for healthy liturgical structures that facilitate encounters with the Holy Spirit without demanding emotional extremes, stressing the importance of both order and openness to spontaneous Spirit-led moments. The episode concludes by urging listeners who have been hurt to engage in forgiveness and healing, nurture personal discernment, and lean on community and professional help where necessary. Ultimately, it calls Christians to courageously live as a vibrant, Spirit-led community that embodies the love and power of God in everyday life.
Highlights
🌟 Love is the ultimate aim of ministry, shaping how spiritual gifts and obedience manifest.
🔥 Physical manifestations of the Spirit’s power, including healing, should be expected and embraced in whole-person experiences.
💔 Forgiveness and healing are crucial for those hurt by immature or harmful ministry practices.
🤔 Distinguishing between immaturity and disobedience in ministry fosters grace and accountability.
🌿 Cultivating a hunger for the Holy Spirit’s presence is essential for spiritual growth and revival.
🕊️ Healthy liturgy balances order and openness, creating space for Spirit encounters without chaos.
🤝 Community, prayer, and professional support can help believers process wounds and deepen their relationship with God.
Key Insights
💖 Love as the Fulfillment of the Law and Ministry’s Foundation: The hosts repeatedly underscore that loving God and loving others are the fulfillment of God’s law—the central “main thing” in ministry. This means ministry must be shaped not by formulas or performance but by genuine love, embodied in patience, humility, and grace. Misguided approaches driven by pride, fear, or control hinder the true flow of the Spirit and harm relationships. Love becomes the litmus test that validates spiritual experiences and leadership effectiveness.
🌬️ Physical and Emotional Manifestations Reflect a Whole-Person Encounter With God: Justin and Amy assert that Christian experience is holistic, involving body, mind, and spirit. Manifestations such as healing or emotional renewal are biblically grounded and meant to be normal, not aberrations limited to fringe groups. Embracing these expressions leads believers into wholeness and a tangible experience of God’s kingdom among us.
🩹 Navigating Hurt from Abusive or Disruptive Ministry: A significant part of the discussion deals with addressing pain caused by ministry that was immature, sinful, or manipulative. The hosts advocate intentional forgiveness as a release, alongside a season of healing often requiring community and professional help. This approach recognizes the reality of trauma and encourages a pathway toward restoration rather than bitterness or judgment.
⚖️ Differentiating Immaturity From Disobedience Is Crucial for Spiritual Maturity: Not all “weird” behaviors or unexpected manifestations reflect disobedience. Some reflect immaturity—a normal phase in growth requiring patient correction. Labeling immature expressions as disobedience can stifle growth and alienate people. Properly assessing situations with compassion, asking probing questions, and guiding with grace can transform environments into places where people feel safe to “fail forward.”
🔥 Risky Obedience Out of Love Spurs Spiritual Breakthroughs: The podcast shares a story highlighting God’s power working through someone immature and flawed, emphasizing that God’s healing is motivated by His love for broken people, not human perfection or credentials. Risky obedience—acting in faith with a loving heart even if it feels unconventional—is contrasted with unloving actions driven by formulaic or manipulative motives.
🎶 Liturgy as a Vessel for Encountering God, Balancing Order With Openness: The hosts challenge the notion that Spirit-led worship must always be spontaneous or emotionally intense. They argue for thoughtful, well-crafted liturgies that encompass inclusive, predictable structures allowing congregants to engage in worship beyond fluctuating feelings. This rhythm provides stability and invites deeper, long-term transformation while remaining open to the Spirit’s surprises.
🛡️ Discernment and Healthy Boundaries Are Essential Leadership Attributes: Effective leaders must cultivate a keen discernment that navigates between chaos and control, loving the Spirit’s movement without enabling dysfunction. They must understand their own limits, practice self-awareness about control and judgment tendencies, and set boundaries that allow others to grow safely. This leadership fosters maturity and a community culture where Spirit-led revival can thrive sustainably.
🌱 Spiritual Hunger and Poverty of Spirit Are Vital for Growth: Echoing Jesus’ Beatitudes, the hosts highlight that a “poverty of spirit”—a humble acknowledgment of need and desire for the Spirit’s work—is fundamental for receiving God’s kingdom. Lack of spiritual hunger may reflect underlying wounds, anger, or complacency, but God invites all to ask continually for “more,” and responding to this hunger paves the way for revival and deeper intimacy with God.
🤝 Community Support and Professional Resources Enhance Healing and Growth: The conversation recognizes that past wounds or spiritual blockages may require outside help, such as counseling or coaching, especially from Christian practitioners who understand faith dynamics. Embracing healing as a journey and inviting others into that process reduces isolation and strengthens spiritual resilience.
🎯 The Holy Spirit Is Lord Equally With Father and Son, Invited to Increase in Every Believer’s Life: The hosts emphasize the need to welcome the Holy Spirit fully into our spiritual lives, beyond mere intellectual assent to Jesus or God the Father. They encourage believers to seek a fuller conversion to the Spirit, trusting Him as the giver of life who leads into freedom, power, and love, demonstrating the Trinitarian nature of God’s work.
Conclusion
This episode is a rich, pastoral reflection on how Christians can navigate the complexities of Spirit-led ministry today, discerning true move of God amidst human frailty and cultural expectations. By rooting everything in love, fostering spiritual hunger, practicing forgiveness, cultivating healthy liturgy, and embracing risky—but loving—obedience, followers of Jesus can build authentic communities where heaven and earth meet. The encouragement to seek out both personal and communal healing, combined with the call for mature leadership and open-hearted Spirit-led worship, offers a practical and hopeful roadmap for renewal and revival in contemporary faith expressions.

Episode 13: Part 1: Manifestations of the Spirit: Being you, Being Weird, and Loving Well

Summary
The podcast episode from Between Heaven and Earth, hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, delves into the often misunderstood and sometimes “weird” manifestations of the Holy Spirit in ministry and worship settings. They explore how such expressions—ranging from emotional worship experiences to prophetic acts and deliverance ministry—can sometimes appear odd or unsettling to observers yet hold significant spiritual meaning. The hosts emphasize the core purpose of any Spirit-led ministry: to help people truly know and feel God’s love, rather than to draw attention to individuals or create theatrical displays.
They stress the importance of balancing openness to the Holy Spirit’s movement with mature discernment to avoid exploitation, manipulation, or immaturity in ministry expressions. The conversation is candid about the challenges leaders and congregations face when unconventional manifestations occur, including emotional intensity, physical reactions such as shaking or falling, and prophetic acts that may initially unsettle the community. Amy and Justin wrestle with how cultural expectations, fear of judgment, insecurity, and pressure can lead ministry participants to act artificially or “weird.”
Throughout, they highlight scriptural foundations and emphasize that true prophetic and Holy Spirit ministry must ultimately produce the fruit of the Spirit—love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control—and bring glory to Jesus rather than focusing on human performance. They also address how physical manifestations—though sometimes uncomfortable or misunderstood—may accompany genuine encounters with God, citing biblical examples and personal stories. The hosts conclude by encouraging listeners to love well, exercise wisdom, and embrace authenticity in their spiritual journeys without succumbing to anxiety or the compulsion to control others’ experiences.
Highlights
🙏 Exploring Holy Spirit manifestations that can appear unconventional or “weird” without losing spiritual authenticity.
❤️ The primary goal of Spirit-led ministry is to foster genuine love and connection to God, not spectacle or control.
🔍 Discernment is key: manifestations must be weighed against biblical fruit and focus on Jesus, not individual attention.
☯️ Balancing emotional worship with maturity to avoid manipulation or unnecessary theatricality.
🎭 Pressure, fear, and insecurity often drive people to perform or replicate strange behaviors in ministry settings.
✨ Scriptural prophetic acts can be unusual or jarring but must ultimately edify and build up the church in love.
🛡️ Caring leadership involves loving both the individual experiencing God in a unique way and the corporate community simultaneously.
Key Insights
🔥 Manifestations of the Spirit are diverse and can be misunderstood: The podcast acknowledges that manifestations such as shaking, laughing, falling, or prophetic acts can seem strange to outsiders or even insiders but often represent genuine encounters with God’s presence and power. However, this diversity requires careful discernment to avoid mistaking human immaturity or emotional manipulation for divine activity. This insight reminds ministry leaders to cultivate an environment where authenticity and spiritual fruitfulness override the desire for control or spectacle.
🤝 Love is the ultimate litmus test for ministry practices: The hosts underscore that the hallmark of any authentic Holy Spirit activity is love—both for God and neighbor. Manifestations that cause division, offense, or self-glorification fail this test. Love involves patience, gentleness, kindness, and self-control, even amid intense emotional or spiritual experiences. This emphasis on love challenges ministries to prioritize relational integrity and community health over dramatic displays.
⚖️ Cultural and personal factors contribute to “weirdness” in ministry: Anxiety, fear of judgment, immaturity, and pressure within congregations or leadership groups often motivate exaggerated or performative behavior. For example, young or insecure individuals may mimic behaviors they have seen without fully understanding their spiritual significance, and leaders may pressure others to “look spiritual” on stage. Recognizing these dynamics is vital to fostering a spiritually mature and supportive atmosphere that honors the Spirit without fostering competition or manipulation.
📖 Biblical prophetic acts often defy social norms and include discomfort: The podcast references prophets like Ezekiel, Hosea, and Isaiah, who enacted jarring, unconventional acts commanded by God, sometimes involving suffering or public embarrassment. This contextualizes seemingly strange modern manifestations within a biblical framework, reminding listeners that God can use unusual methods to communicate and redeem, though genuine prophecy ultimately points to Jesus and invites community transformation.
🧠 Discernment in prophetic and deliverance ministry requires humility and scriptural grounding: The hosts caution against automatically attributing every unusual event to God, pointing out the need for leaders and participants to evaluate experiences against the fruit of the Spirit, biblical truth, and the edification of the church. They acknowledge the difficulty in discerning between God’s work and human or demonic influence, emphasizing the importance of humility and relational sensitivity—particularly when delivering prophetic words or ministering in difficult situations.
🤲 Deliverance ministry can be intense and even physically uncomfortable but aims to bring freedom: Descriptions of deliverance experiences involving emotional outbursts or physical symptoms like vomiting illustrate the raw, messy reality of spiritual warfare. The emphasis remains on maintaining dignity for the person ministered to and focusing on the liberating power of Jesus rather than sensationalism. This insight invites a biblical, compassionate approach to the spiritual brokenness and healing process.
🧩 Stepping into Spirit-led ministry often feels uncomfortable and requires faith and courage: Both hosts share personal reflections on the discomfort, fear, and risk involved in obeying God’s call to minister in unconventional ways, whether through prophetic words or public ministry. This highlights that discomfort is often a normal part of spiritual growth and obedience, and that moving beyond self-consciousness toward God-consciousness fosters authentic ministry aligned with God’s purposes.
Conclusion
This episode of Between Heaven and Earth offers a thoughtful, balanced exploration of the complexities surrounding manifestations of the Holy Spirit in contemporary church life. By rooting their conversation in scripture, pastoral experience, and personal honesty, Justin and Amy Howard equip listeners to refine their understanding of Spirit-led ministry—rejecting manic emotionalism and prideful performance, while embracing genuine encounters marked by love, humility, and reverence for Jesus. The discussion encourages believers to foster environments where brokenness meets healing, discomfort births courage, and heaven and earth tangibly intersect in the power of God’s Spirit.

Episode 12: Part 2: How to Suffer Well: Honesty and Friendship with Jesus

Summary
In this episode of Between Heaven and Earth, hosts Justin and Amy Howard explore the complex nature of suffering caused by other people’s sin and how followers of Jesus can engage with it biblically and practically. The discussion distinguishes between forgiveness, healing, and reconciliation—three distinct responses to suffering that often get conflated. Forgiveness is a personal choice to release retribution, healing is a divine work of restoration, and reconciliation requires mutual effort and repentance.
They delve into common unhealthy ways people respond to suffering caused by others, such as codependency, where one absorbs harm wrongly, leading to emotional and physical consequences. Instead, they advocate for an “upcycling” approach of handing suffering over to Jesus and partnering with Him in healing, which requires setting healthy boundaries, acknowledging anger, and reframing pain in a Christian spiritual context.
The hosts affirm the validity and importance of anger as a divine signal that propels one to action but warn against unresolved resentment and rage, which are harmful and unchristian. Through personal testimony, they illustrate how setting boundaries guided by God’s love can transform difficult relationships.
They also introduce the concept of “love covering a multitude of sins” (1 Peter 4:8), emphasizing that love does not ignore sin but chooses relationship and costly engagement nonetheless, modeled on Christ’s sacrificial love. The discussion extends to the mysterious and redemptive nature of “unitive suffering,” where believers share in Christ’s sufferings, deepening intimacy with Him and others.
Finally, they offer practical pastoral wisdom: suffering is often mysterious, healing is incremental, humility is crucial when intervening in others’ pain, and prayer should be honest, raw, and persistent—marked by a shameless audacity to bring our suffering to God. The episode encourages listeners to embrace suffering as part of spiritual growth while maintaining hope and trust in divine healing and restoration.
Highlights
💡 Forgiveness, healing, and reconciliation are distinct but interconnected responses to suffering caused by others’ sin.
🔥 Anger is a healthy, God-given signal that calls for action and boundary-setting.
🤝 Codependent responses to suffering are harmful; healthy boundaries and handing pain to Jesus are crucial.
❤️ “Love covers a multitude of sins” means choosing relationship despite cost, following Christ’s example.
🌿 Unitive suffering deepens intimacy with Christ by participating in His sufferings.
⏳ Healing often takes time and involves gradual restoration rather than instant relief.
🙏 Honest, persistent prayer with shameless audacity is essential in engaging suffering and receiving God’s guidance.
Key Insights
😔 Differentiating Forgiveness, Healing, and Reconciliation: Forgiveness is a voluntary release of personal vengeance; healing is God’s work restoring brokenness; reconciliation requires mutual repentance and rebuilding trust. This clarity prevents common misunderstandings in pastoral care and personal relationships, emphasizing that forgiveness does not necessitate instant reconciliation nor does healing always follow immediately.
🛑 The Danger of Codependency: Absorbing others’ sin and pain as one’s own, often justified as “being holy” or a “good victim,” leads to emotional overload, physical symptoms, and eventual relational explosion. Recognizing codependency allows believers to break cycles of dysfunction by learning to set boundaries and hand over pain to Jesus rather than internalizing it.
😠 Biblical Role of Anger as a Propellant for Action: Anger in Scripture reflects God’s righteousness and motivates necessary action for justice and boundary-setting. Healthy anger is not sinful but is a bodily and spiritual signal that “something is not good.” When properly stewarded, anger leads to constructive responses that defend one’s integrity and relational health. Conversely, unresolved anger breeds resentment (bitterness and desire for revenge) and rage (dehumanizing aggression), both destructive and unbiblical.
💔 Love Covering a Multitude of Sins in Real Relationships: This biblical principle, often misunderstood as ignoring sin, actually reflects costly relational engagement despite ongoing brokenness. It mirrors Christ’s sacrificial love toward imperfect people, meaning Christians are invited to sustain relationships in grace even when it hurts, thereby participating in God’s redemptive work of restoration.
🔄 The Mystery and Participation in Unitive Suffering: Believers are called not only to endure suffering but to participate with Christ in His sufferings, deepening intimacy with Him and transforming suffering into spiritual union. This concept, rooted in Pauline theology and early church teaching, reframes suffering as a sacred fellowship rather than a meaningless burden. It challenges modern cultural avoidance of pain and redefines suffering as formative in sanctification.
⏳ The Gradual Nature of Healing and the Necessity of Patience: Healing is compared to the slow melting of ice—often invisible while in process and only fully felt at the end. This insight counteracts the misconception that spiritual or emotional healing should be immediate and highlights the importance of perseverance, trust, and humility amid ongoing pain.
🙌 Shameless Audacity in Prayer as an Expression of Intimacy: Jesus invites believers to persist boldly in prayer, even to the point of discomfort or audacity, exemplified in the parable of the friend asking for bread at midnight. This teaching encourages approaching God candidly with our suffering, anger, and confusion rather than hiding or minimizing our pain, fostering genuine intimacy with God in the midst of hardship.
Conclusion
Through integrating theology with practical experience, this episode of Between Heaven and Earth equips listeners to navigate the complexities of suffering caused by others’ sin with biblical wisdom and grace. By distinguishing forgiveness, healing, and reconciliation; embracing righteous anger and healthy boundaries; and entering unitive suffering and audacious prayer, believers are empowered to bring heaven’s restorative kingdom to earth in their relationships and communities. Ultimately, the episode offers hope that suffering, while often mysterious and costly, participates in the transformative journey toward knowing and embodying Christ’s self-giving love.

Episode 11: Part 1: How to Suffer Well: Honesty and Friendship with Jesus

Summary
The podcast episode “Between Heaven and Earth,” hosted by Justin and Amy Howard, delves deeply into the complex and often challenging topic of suffering from a Christian perspective. They position suffering as an inevitable part of living in a broken world that exists in tension between the kingdom of God and earthly realities. The hosts emphasize that suffering is universal—everyone experiences it, either as the sufferer or as one who causes suffering. They explore different types of suffering: suffering caused by the broken world, by our own sin, by others’ sin, and sympathetic suffering, which is sharing in the pain of others, especially in intimacy with Jesus.
Justin and Amy articulate that suffering, while painful and difficult to discuss, holds redemptive potential when engaged with God, transforming hearts and producing empathy, compassion, and hope. Their theological framing highlights the promise of the kingdom of God, where suffering and death will ultimately end. However, until that divine restoration occurs, believers must navigate suffering with courage, discernment, and God’s presence.
The episode also critically challenges common pitfalls in responding to suffering, such as trying to rationalize or solve all suffering logically (“head responses”) versus attending to the emotional and spiritual realities (“heart responses”). They critique simplistic or harmful Christian responses like blaming the sufferer (exemplified by the friends of Job) or offering superficial platitudes. Instead, the Howards advocate for thoughtful engagement that includes repenting for one’s own sin, practicing authentic forgiveness without rushing reconciliation, and being present without trying to “fix” others’ pain.
A significant portion of their discussion focuses on the practical outworking of faith amid suffering—embracing missional living, serving others, praying boldly, and discerning the nature of the suffering in order to respond appropriately. They reject the narrow focus on human justice or equal rights as the ultimate resolution, reminding listeners that the kingdom of God operates on the upside-down principle of servanthood and humility modeled by Jesus.
Finally, they give hope that none of our suffering is wasted and invite listeners to bring their pain before God, allowing Him to transform it into growth and deeper fellowship. They preview a follow-up episode that will further explore suffering caused by others and sympathetic suffering, promising a continued journey toward understanding and healing.
Highlights
🌍 Suffering is universal and inevitable in a broken world existing between heaven and earth.
💡 Distinguishing types of suffering (worldly, own sin, others’ sin, and sympathetic) helps us respond rightly.
❤️ Redemptive suffering transforms hearts, fostering empathy, hope, and intimacy with Jesus.
🧠 Avoid rigidly intellectualizing suffering; true healing often requires heart-level engagement.
🤝 Forgiveness is distinct from reconciliation; both require patience and God’s grace.
🙌 Kingdom justice is upside down, prioritizing servanthood over equality or human retaliation.
🕊️ Practical response to suffering includes service, intercession, discernment, and courageous trust in God.
Key Insights
🌪️ Suffering as a Theological and Existential Reality: The podcast situates suffering as an inescapable aspect of the “veil of tears” in which believers live until the full manifestation of the kingdom of God, where suffering will cease. This theological framing helps listeners understand suffering as both a present challenge and a future hope, preventing despair while encouraging perseverance.
🕵️‍♂️ Necessity of Suffering Discernment: The Howards emphasize discerning the origin of suffering—whether it stems from the fallen world, personal sin, others’ sin, or empathetic sharing—as a crucial step in how one responds. This insight encourages a nuanced approach that avoids one-size-fits-all solutions, instead promoting wisdom and spiritual sensitivity.
💔 The Danger of “Head-Only” Responses: The temptation to “solve suffering” intellectually or to blame the sufferer is critiqued using the example of Job’s friends. Head-only responses often fail to address the deep emotional and spiritual wounds that suffering causes. This combats unhealthy Christian rhetoric that oversimplifies suffering or equates faith with immediate healing.
🤗 Redemptive Suffering as Soul-Making: Rather than suffering merely being something to endure or escape, the podcast highlights its potential to produce spiritual growth, obedience, compassion, and Christlikeness through engagement with God. This adds a transformative, hopeful dimension to Christian suffering, encouraging listeners to bring their pain to God rather than hide or deny it.
🛑 Forgiveness Doesn’t Equal Reconciliation: Forgiveness is a personal, unilateral action handing over injustice to God, while reconciliation is a mutual, relational process requiring time, trust, and healing. This distinction is crucial to prevent pushing victims into premature reconciliation, which can re-traumatize or hinder genuine healing.
🤲 Servanthood Over Equality in Kingdom Justice: The podcast critiques the cultural fixation on equality as the ultimate justice goal, contrasting it with the kingdom’s upside-down values where humility and servanthood lead. This counters simplistic socio-political narratives and invites Christians to embody kingdom values even amid social injustice.
🙏 Practical Christian Response Involves Service and Intercession: The Howards emphasize that living missionally by serving others’ practical needs (Matthew 25), alongside bold intercessory prayer, is a key way to respond to suffering. This practical call moves beyond abstract theology to incarnational action that expresses the kingdom of God in tangible ways.
Overall, this episode offers a richly textured theological, pastoral, and practical approach to suffering. It invites listeners into a mature Christian engagement with pain—one that acknowledges complexity, resists easy answers, fosters compassion, and points ultimately toward hope in God’s redemptive work. The integration of biblical stories, personal testimony, and theology creates a solid foundation for anyone wrestling with suffering either personally or in ministry.

Episode 10: The Power of an Encounter Weekend - A Pastor's Experience

Summary
The podcast episode from Between Heaven and Earth features hosts Justin and Amy Howard interviewing Pastor Shea Fitzgibbons from Bethany Church, New Hampshire, about the transformative impact of Encounter Culture Mission Collaborative (ECMC) on his ministry and congregation. Pastor Shea shares his personal journey to pastoral ministry, highlighting the deep challenges of pastoral life, including stress, loneliness, and burnout. He emphasizes the critical need for holistic discipleship that addresses emotional, spiritual, and physical healing while fostering authentic community within the church.
Shea describes his introduction to ECMC events like Encounter God weekends, Encounter Equip trainings, and Encounter Life cohorts, and how these have reshaped his perspective on prayer ministry and healing in a practical, non-weird way suited to his culturally reserved church context. The interview explores common pastoral and congregational concerns around charismatic expressions and the balance of spiritual openness with structure and respect. Shea reveals how these programs promote genuine healing, transparency, and community through practices like confession, prayer ministry, and mutual support. He shares encouraging stories of congregants empowered to bring healing prayer into everyday life and evangelism without formulaic approaches.
The episode also addresses broader cultural and spiritual struggles in churches that reflect the brokenness of society, such as addiction, loneliness, and complacency. The hosts and Pastor Shea urge church leaders and followers to pursue authentic encounters with God’s love and healing power that extend beyond information to embodied transformation and mission. The conversation closes with a hopeful call for churches to foster honest, healing environments where people can bring their pain openly and experience the power of community and the Spirit. The interview highlights ECMC’s role in equipping ordinary believers for ministry and prayer that bridges heaven and earth with practical love and restoration.
Highlights
🙏 Pastor Shea’s journey from engineer to pastor embodies God’s gentle, persistent call to ministry.
💡 ECMC’s holistic discipleship fosters healing that touches the whole person—not just behavior change.
🤝 The importance of authentic community in church for overcoming loneliness and isolation.
🔥 Training in “non-weird” prayer ministry unlocks healing and evangelism accessible to reserved church cultures.
🌿 Encounter Life cohorts support ongoing healing and relational growth beyond weekend events.
💬 Authentic vulnerability and confession in community radically transform church culture and individual healing.
🌍 Healing prayer ministry serves as a natural bridge between meeting practical needs and sharing the gospel.
Key Insights
🙌 Ministry is hard and often isolating, but shared community and honest confession offer needed relief: Pastor Shea candidly discusses the loneliness and stress common among pastors, emphasizing the value of trusted peer groups and prayer teams for mutual support and resilience. This counters the damaging expectation that pastors must always “have it together,” highlighting the importance of vulnerability.
✨ Encounter Culture offers a fresh model of discipleship centered on experiential healing rather than solely informational teaching: Traditional discipleship often relies on knowledge acquisition, but ECMC prioritizes encounters with God’s love that heal deep wounds—physical, emotional, and spiritual—enabling transformation rather than mere behavior modification. This approach better addresses the root causes of struggle and sin in people’s lives.
🔄 Prayer ministry training grounded in relational authenticity and practical technique eases fears of ‘weirdness’ in more reserved church cultures: Many evangelical and conservative congregations worry about charismatic expression disrupting order or alienating attendees. ECMC’s “non-weird” prayer training provides safe, reproducible practices for prayer ministry that empower laypeople to minister healing in ways respectful of their cultural context.
💞 Church culture that invites honesty about sin and brokenness profoundly shifts congregational health: By modeling confession and mutual intercession, churches dismantle the damaging “sin management” mentality that leads to shame and isolation. Instead, a culture of grace strengthens the body as a whole and demonstrates the power of Jesus to heal ongoing struggles transparently.
🌱 Ongoing ministry through groups like Encounter Life sustains growth and deepens community beyond weekend experiences: The 12-week cohorts create safe spaces where people can progress through healing at a realistic pace, holding one another accountable with emotional, spiritual, and relational support—essential for lasting change.
👣 Healing prayer ministry naturally connects evangelism with care, making gospel conversations less forced and more organic: Instead of rehearsed presentations, trained prayer ministers spontaneously meet hurting people’s needs, inviting them to Jesus through demonstrated love and power. This approach aligns well with cultural skepticism toward formulaic evangelism strategies.
🌎 The New England church context challenges the church to embrace authentic spirituality over cultural religiosity: Pastor Shea highlights New Englanders’ preference for genuine, tested faith over superficial religious trends. This regional mindset offers a fertile ground for authentic discipleship and spiritual renewal if ministries are willing to prioritize honesty and practical ministry rooted in real-life experience.
This episode underlines the urgent need for churches to shift from surface-level discipleship and disconnected ministry toward embracing holistic healing, authentic community, and Spirit-led prayer ministries. ECMC’s resources and model serve as exemplars for building vibrant churches where heaven and earth converge in healing and mission.

Episode 9: Reemergence of the Gnostic Heresy: Physical Healing, Sex, and Gender

Summary
In today's episode of “Between Heaven and Earth,” hosted by Justin and Amy, they explore the crucial yet challenging subject of physical healing within Christian faith, especially as practiced and understood in Western evangelical contexts. The hosts aim to provide listeners with a deeper vision of physical healing, moving beyond mere theoretical acceptance to functional, faith-driven practice that aligns with Jesus’ example. The discussion emphasizes that physical healing was a priority in Jesus’ life and ministry, and thus it should be for believers today. However, many Christians struggle to fully embrace supernatural healing due to intellectualism, theological misunderstandings, and cultural influences like Gnosticism—a worldview that devalues the material and physical in favor of the spiritual, often leading to complex issues around gender and the body.
The podcast critiques the prevalent Western Christian tendency to emphasize intellectual knowledge over experiential obedience and faith, which can hinder the practice of healing ministries. It also challenges cessationist views that suggest miraculous gifts, including healing, are no longer necessary in the present age, pointing out the ongoing presence of sickness and suffering as evidence to the contrary. An important theological underpinning for healing is the incarnation of Jesus Christ, whose physical resurrection affirms the intrinsic goodness and eternal significance of the human body and physical matter.
The hosts also address Gnosticism's pervasive cultural and church influence, linking it to contemporary debates on gender and sexuality, specifically how separating “gender” from “sex” has led to confusion, brokenness, and an erosion of biblical anthropology. They argue for a balanced worldview that embraces the physical body as good and meaningful rather than evil or merely a prison for the spirit. Practical steps toward healing include renouncing lies about the body, forgiving oneself and others for past hurts, and actively engaging in prayer and community support. The episode closes with encouragement to embrace a holistic, embodied Christian spirituality that brings heaven and earth together through faith in God’s healing power.
Highlights
✨ Healing is a priority for Jesus and should be for His followers too.
🧠 Western Christianity often emphasizes intellect over obedient, faith-filled action.
🔥 Physical healing requires more than theoretical belief—it demands experiential faith.
💔 Gnosticism, which devalues the physical, deeply influences both culture and church, especially around gender and sexuality.
💪 True healing starts with renouncing lies about the body and embracing God’s goodness in matter.
🙏 Healing involves practical faith steps: forgiveness, prayer, community, and openness to the Spirit.
🌟 Jesus’ incarnation and resurrection affirm the eternal value of the physical body and matter.
Key Insights
✝️ Jesus’ Example Validates Physical Healing as Kingdom Priority: The podcast highlights how Jesus’ life and ministry, heavily marked by physical healing and deliverance, showcase God’s intention for healing as central to the kingdom. If healing mattered to Jesus, it must matter to His followers, as obedience to God means living like Jesus did. This underscores a practical, embodied faith rather than a detached intellectual assent. Many Christians intellectually affirm healing but fail to engage it functionally in the church or personal prayer life.
🧠 Intellectualism as a Barrier to Healing Faith: Western evangelicalism’s strong emphasis on theology, doctrine, and rational study often leads to “theoretical charismaticism,” where believers hold to charismatic doctrines but do not actively practice healing or supernatural gifts. This intellectual dominance fosters paralysis in obedience, where knowledge replaces action and interaction with God’s power. The hosts call for a balance that nurtures both sound theology and courageous faith-in-action.
💔 Gnosticism’s Ongoing Influence Shapes Negative Views of the Body: Gnosticism, a heresy rooted in Platonic dualism, separates spirit and matter, elevating the spiritual as “more real” and disparaging the physical as evil or meaningless. The podcast traces how this worldview infiltrates modern church culture, contributing to confusion over gender and sexuality, particularly the division between “gender” (internal, spiritual) and “sex” (physical body). This theological error fuels cultural issues such as transgender ideology and other distortions and diminishes the biblical affirmation of creation’s goodness.
🙌 Incarnation as the Ultimate Affirmation of Matter’s Goodness: Jesus’ historic incarnation—born fully human and bodily resurrected—definitively affirms that God cares deeply about physical matter and the body. Jesus’ resurrection body and promised resurrection for believers guarantee that matter is not irrelevant or evil but part of God’s eternal plan. This theology forms a foundational basis for Christian belief in physical healing and the ultimate restoration of all creation.
🦋 Practical Steps Toward Healing are Spiritual and Relational: Healing involves renouncing lies about the body (e.g., it’s useless, dangerous, or shameful), forgiving oneself and others for abuses or neglect, and embracing God’s love and healing power through prayer and community support. The hosts emphasize that healing is often a process requiring vulnerability, faith, and communal participation, including receiving prayer, laying on of hands, and anointing with oil.
💡 Healing is Part of Integrating Heaven and Earth: The podcast frames healing as a priestly act of bringing heaven and earth together, repairing the brokenness where God’s kingdom intersects with the present age. It urges Christians to move beyond disappointment and passivity towards hopeful, active participation in God’s restoration work, trusting in the Spirit to teach how to love what Jesus loves—including our bodies and the physical world.
Conclusion
Between Heaven and Earth offers a deeply biblically rooted and pastoral reflection on physical healing that challenges the Western church’s intellectualized Christianity and cultural compromises. It calls for renewed faith in God’s healing power, a rediscovery of the goodness of the physical body, and an embodied discipleship modeled on Jesus’ healing ministry. The podcast underscores the ongoing relevance of supernatural gifts and healing, the necessity of forgiving and correcting faulty beliefs, and the importance of living faith that unites spiritual truths with tangible reality. It challenges listeners to courageously join Jesus in His great project of healing, restoration, and bringing heaven and earth together.

Episode 8: The Longest Distance: Bridging the Gap Between Head and Heart

Summary
In this episode of “Between Heaven and Earth,” hosts Justin and Amy Howard dive deep into the theme of healing the disconnect often experienced between intellectual beliefs and emotional truth—specifically, between one’s head and heart. The discussion centers on the premise that followers of Jesus may often know theological truths but struggle to embody those truths emotionally. Justin and Amy interactively explore this disconnect and frame it as the “head-heart difference,” using personal anecdotes and theological insights. They emphasize the importance of recognizing blocks that hinder spiritual emotional growth and healing, including bad information (misconceptions about God), traumatic experiences that have not been processed, and mal-formed emotional connections. The episode aims to empower listeners to embrace their healing journey, invite God into their emotional struggles, and potentially facilitate healing not only for themselves but also for others. Inviting Jesus, or the concept of love, into painful memories is vital for healing. This approach helps to create a deep emotional bond that acknowledges one’s suffering while offering profound healing.
 
Call to action: Listeners are invited to engage their stories, seek healing counsel, coaching, or spiritual direction through OneLife Group, and participate in upcoming Encounter Culture events designed to support their spiritual and emotional growth.

Episode 7: Can Christians be Demonized?

Summary
In today's episode of “Between Heaven and Earth,” we delve into the debate of oppression vs. possession. Key questions raise the issue of whether Christians can be afflicted by demons, exploring biblical theology and the early church’s views on deliverance. Justin and Amy draw upon personal experiences and scriptural references to argue that while believers are secure in Christ, they are still susceptible to spiritual influences and must actively engage in spiritual disciplines for healing and renewal. The episode promotes a vision of empowering individuals within communities to participate in God’s mission of restoration and healing, emphasizing the need for ongoing discipleship that includes healing and deliverance.
Key Insights
📚 Listeners are directed toward foundational resources for learning about deliverance, such as Neal Lozano’s book “Unbound.”
🗝️ Affliction in Faith: It is argued that although Christians are protected in their relationship with Jesus, they can still experience spiritual affliction similar to how they can sin or encounter physical illness. This understanding is essential for approaching healing in a Christian context, focusing on the reality of ongoing spiritual warfare even among believers.
🤔 Biblical Misinterpretation: Many biblical passages are often cited to support the belief that Christians cannot be demonized. The hosts invite listeners to consider that the context of these scriptures may not outright dismiss the possibility of demonic interaction but rather provide a call to vigilance and active engagement in spiritual disciplines.
🏛️ Historical Context of Deliverance: The podcast draws attention to the practices of the early church regarding deliverance, revealing a time when new converts underwent thorough preparation for baptism, including exorcisms and teaching on the kingdom, emphasizing the ongoing need for deliverance.
⚖️ Possession vs. Oppression: Justin and Amy explore the idea that the terms “possession” and “oppression” may not fully encapsulate the spiritual realities faced by believers. They suggest there’s a spectrum of influence, where individuals may experience varying degrees of demonic influence that affect their spiritual agency and decision-making.
🌍 Valuing Community in Healing: The hosts stress the importance of community in the healing process, not only for accountability but also as a means to love and be loved. They emphasize that true discipleship and healing can’t be achieved in isolation, echoing the biblical call for the body of Christ to coalesce around one another to share in the Divine Life.
💼 Curating Discipleship Models: There’s a critique of modern discipleship models that often overlook the importance of addressing demonic influence and healing in the life of a believer. Instead of solely focusing on theological understanding, the podcast advocates for equipping believers to engage meaningfully in the practice of deliverance as part of their journey of sanctification.
🧠 The Necessity of Therapy and Deliverance: The conversation acknowledges that trauma and emotional wounds often intertwine with demonic influence. This highlights the necessity of integrating spiritual healing practices that address both psychological and spiritual aspects, validating a holistic approach to healing.